Breath of Fresh Air

This is refreshing. Here's an exchange on Twitter that went really well for a change!

Someone tweeted: Do vegans get hungry while mowing lawns??

Another replied: Do carnists get thirsty when drawing blood?

I said: Spot on! Do carnists look at animals and think "yum"? ...Cows? Pigs? Horses maybe? Dogs? All probably pretty tasty!

Shane replied (and continued with me in this) > Well I know hunters that do.

I replied: Probably deer, but not cats and dogs would be my guess. I bet they never wonder about that.

> Deer, Moose and Reindeer. I guess fisherman would look at some fish and shrimp this way too. But no not things like cats and dogs. I’m from Alaska where hunting can be a way of life.

"Way of life" sounds like a way to live that is necessary. Why would hunting, fishing - or, for that matter, eating animals - be necessary? My guess is that it comes closer to habituation, enculturation...or business. When those things cause suffering, we need to look closer.

>It’s culture and tradition, some see things as a rite of passage, then there is subsistence hunting and fishing. Which not everyone is familiar with.

Yes, surely. How many of those ideas involve careful consideration of the animals' feelings, or how their deaths may affect their mates or offspring, or their pack?

If a person kills an animal without sincere consideration for the animal's feelings (pain, fear, suffering) and the loss this may cause to dependent offspring or mate, it is not conscious and therefore can't be "humane" in any sense.

> So do you expect that everyone should change their cultures and customs? I’m genuinely curious, no argument and I’m not bashing at all. I have several friends that are vegan and I don’t give them any grief, it’s their choice and I respect that.

If someone asks the animal being killed whether they want to be killed, and they agree, then it's ok. If not, it is unethical. It's not about what I expect. It is that an unethical person cannot be happy, and I want all beings to be happy.

Taking the life of another may be conscious if it is directly necessary for survival in that moment, and no other unneeded killing or harm takes place. It could only be "humane" if it is some kind of mercy killing intended to directly help that being. How many think of this?

I don't support murder in any form. Killing only in the very rare case that it would be the last resort to help relieve the suffering of either an animal or a human. Killing someone who does not want to die is indeed murder, which is a crime.

Hard to give vegans grief, because they are trying to limit harm. The one who kills a being that does not want to be killed... it's not their "personal" choice, because [their choice] does not take into account the wishes of the one being killed. I can't respect that, if done unnecessarily.

> I can respect that answer so much, and I sincerely appreciate your consistency with your convictions. It’s far too often people are not consistent, but you, you very much are and that’s very admirable. I don’t know you, but I sense you are good people.

Thank you, Shane, for your kind words. I also feel that sense about you, based upon your thoughtful and considerate messages, ideas and questions. This is a breath of fresh air on an internet rife with so much animosity. Thank you!

PS: Since we are discussing hunting I feel it is important to recognize that some people may need to kill to survive. Many - such as most (if not all) Indigenous people - do have intimate connections with the animals and do understand the effects on their relations. There is much we can learn from them.

May all beings be free of suffering and the causes of suffering.